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For the Truth to be Known by the Beholder - JOHD

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Jun 6th, 2003


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12:32 - For the Truth to be Known by the Beholder
The following is what I feel is true, and I am not the only one who shares this vision.  It is a reply to a post Arwen made in her journal.  Now, the post she made I cannot reproduce, since it was done so in a locked state, and frankly, if she has it locked she does so for a reason and that I shall respect.  However, my defense to her statement (and to set it up, the long post when I questioned everything mentioned me being a "sperm donar") was deleted.  Only a few people saw the truth, and since I knew it was going to be deleted, I saved a copy that I decided I would post when the event (it being deleted) would happen.  It references an email that I would NOT keep private, since this email sent was done so to other people (unsure how many) via a blind carbon copy.  I was not informed of this, and to my knowledge, I was the only one reading these statements.  Because of this, the email is fair game, however, the journal is not.  For anyone who has access to that list, it can be found on her journal.

I believe very strong in my reasons for doing what I do, and many times I question what I do since I am not sure if I am right or wrong.  I also think on my comments how I use to state, "If I ever got a woman pregnant I would do so a second time on purpose since I do not want a child to live the life I went through being an only child".  At the time, I did not take into consideration the type of woman I might get pregnent.  However, to this day I know the type of person who I do want to be with...

So the following was deleted.  I sense the real reason is so that only one side is known.  This is done because if both sides are known, then the people who onced backed her up and made this mysterious "biofather" look like shit (which futhers the EGO), could possibly... change their mind.  I welcome comments from any and everyone, including people I do not know.  Even if you manage to prove that from what I said I am an evil human being, and I can assure you as with 99% of my posts, it shall not be deleted.  Also take into consideration, that it is not mentioned that I am 100% the 23 genetic blocks... it is just the way things have been going, the only real way to know that truth is to wait for the birth.

... and I can post this since it no longer exists in the private post and is of my own words...

Like I require an excuse :D

(when I post a definition of integrity it will become more apparent)

================
I feel, and granted, I'm still attempting to make sure I exist proper, that you have felt this way before you were pregnent. It appears you have had things thought out for some time, and it is this line of thinking that makes me feel how I do, and what added the short comment to an otherwise... painful existance that I was living. The odd thing, Arwen, is before I could do anything to truly help you in any way, you already had your mind set that you were going to go through this alone. If you think on the "I was not good enough", this is something that you layed down and did on your own accord. I never asked to be lied to, and frankly, with such an important thing as bringing a child into the world, honesty, at its strongest level, in my eyes, is something I feel is important. I will share a little story as to why I feel this way.

I am a product of a woman who lied to a man about being able to have a child. In this case, it was a woman who purposely skipped their birth control. The funny thing (well, to me at least) is that the man to this day does not know how he was decived. No, the man did a lot of things that in almost any other instant I would think he should rot in a corner alone for the rest of his life, however, then I see the situation and what was done to him, and think... well... that is a long road and I do not have the time. Let me share with you an piece of email you sent, when you said, "For one, I am NOT a sharing-type person. I backed off from you because it hurt to see and hear that you were in love..." now, while this was said, in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM did you bother to inform me that you were "involved" and had been with someone else. You also added "I felt betrayed". How about the fact you lied about condom use with other?

As expected, you only tell you side, or quite possibly, you only just see your side. As an example, you state "but yet I was okay to sleep with..." and you do not mention the fact, or maybe you forget, how reluctent I was to sleep with you in the first place. Not that I thought you were ugly, nor that I thought you were a bad person or anything. But because, I was not sure yet who you were, and I did not want to give any false impressions to you. In case you forgot, you were more than willing in that area, and we even had talked about the whole fact before. Maybe you do not remember... or maybe you do not care, I am not sure anymore. Arwen, I had nothing wrong with you, nor did I see anything really wrong with you, until the multitude of decite started to come into play. I was taken aside by someone who cared and was informed of information that you presented that was very opposite from what happened. I still have the chat in case you would like to refresh your memory.

"While I realize that I'm not the easiest person to understand and/or get along with"... never so much could I have seen how true this was, but I will say this much... I do not hate nor despise you, no matter how much you think I may.

I know how much you have wanted a child. I have seen this drive in women before, and in quite a few of my psychology classes learn the biological clock factors that also can help drive it.

I wish your child well. I wish you well. The fact I play no role as father is because I see similar that happened here that happened in my own birth, and I think how long it took me to come to terms with BOTH my parents, since it was nice the one wanted me, but very not cool in the way she went around to achieve it. As for the father, I can understand the reason he was hurt, however, the way he handled it (to a psychodic level even beyond me at this point) was well beyond wrong. However, here I am, and despite my post I made that showed my mind slipping away from everything I believed (which you only respond to the small part about you), I am very happy to be alive.

I have been keeping up, and realize that you have been going through some tough times. Being the student of psychology that I am, I do take that into consideration as to how you have been treating me. Just rememeber, whether you believe it or not, the fact I have almost no involvement deals with how you have treated me throughout this whole thing.

I also do hope you find someone... I have been learning how important it is to have a father figure for a growing child. Most classes go as far as stating "even if he is a beer drinker that does nothing but sit in front of the TV all day". Well... I could debate that personally, but not a point to it.

I would like to give you some advice, and it is advice I would offer anyone in your situation whether as if I did not even know you, and you can take it as me attempting some psychological tactic on you, or you can view it as I mean it, in a way that could help you in the long run.

Just be honest... and I mean real honesty. If someone comes along, just because they have a penis, do not treat them as if that is what they are (I mean this as how many women see men as wanting nothing more than sex and that is how they think when interacting with men). If they SHOW you that is what they are, then yeah, feel free to treat them that way. Do not just shut everyone out and think that everything with this baby is just you. Granted, the mother plays an extremely important role, but if that is what you think with every guy you meet, then your child is going to see that and if you find a guy that guy will not be able to be as accepted by the child since the child will reflect your expectation of the man.

Of course... maybe that is all it is about anyway. Maybe you really *have* thought things through. If this is the case... I'm just talking to myself, in which case, I apologize for taking up your time and causing you so much pain as you seem to think I have done.

So Godspeed, if you believe in God, which I still do.

[[13 comments | Train your Brain]]

Comments:


[User Picture]
From:msmamalove
Date:Jun 7th, 2003 13:54 (UTC)
(Link)
Actually, the real reason your diatribe was deleted was because it was long and verbose. Also because she's never said anything PERSONAL about The Father, just that whoever he may be doesn't seem to really give a crap. Whereas you essentially call her a slut and accuse her of getting knocked up on purpose.

You welcome comments...you're gonna get 'em.

this is something that you layed down and did on your own accord.
That's a neat trick.

I never asked to be lied to, and frankly, with such an important thing as bringing a child into the world, honesty, at its strongest level, in my eyes, is something I feel is important.
She told you as soon as she found out, and she told you that it may not be yours. What's left to know?

I am a product of a woman who lied to a man about being able to have a child. In this case, it was a woman who purposely skipped their birth control.
I feel certain that Arwen never claimed to be unable to get pregnant, nor did she claim that she was using birth control.
Please feel free to back up your claims of Arwen's deceit with facts.

in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM did you bother to inform me that you were "involved" and had been with someone else.
She wasn't. She had comfort sex with a friend.

How about the fact you lied about condom use with other?
What difference does that make to you in this case? YOU clearly weren't using a condom either...if you were, then THIS would not be an issue to you.

and you do not mention the fact, or maybe you forget, how reluctent I was to sleep with you in the first place.
Were you raped? Drugged? Did she put together a "Madd and Arwen Should Have Sex" campaign, complete with buttons and ribbons and Powerpoint presentations, and inundate you with propaganda until you gave up and just did it? Did you trip and fall into her? I DON'T THINK SO.

I know how much you have wanted a child. I have seen this drive in women before, and in quite a few of my psychology classes learn the biological clock factors that also can help drive it.
Here we go...Madd, maybe you should become a doctor before you start diagnosing, mmmkay?

The fact I play no role as father is because I see similar that happened here that happened in my own birth...it was nice the one wanted me, but very not cool in the way she went around to achieve it.
LAME-ASS EXCUSE. Your mother does not equal all women. Your mother does not equal Arwen. The circumstances surrounding this baby's life is not a conspiracy.

Just rememeber, whether you believe it or not, the fact I have almost no involvement deals with how you have treated me throughout this whole thing.
You were informed of the situation, and you made a choice to not involve yourself with Arwen, on any level. I think her "treatment" of you is in direct response to your very clear decision to remain distant. She didn't intend to become pregnant, and I'm sure that you (and the other candidate for Father of the Year) didn't intend to make her that way...she does want to be a mother, but neither of you are ready to be a father. So she asks for nothing from either of you, because she understands that if she has a right to choose, so do the both of you. Most accidental fathers should be so lucky.

Just stop thinking about it, Madd. You MAY have contributed to the life of this child, but you are not it's father. I am, if anyone is. I go to the OB appointments. I give the back massages. I rub the ever-growing belly and the baby kicks when it hears my voice. I have the crucial phone numbers, I'll be the one taking time off work. The role of Daddy has been filled, even if by a married woman with kids of her own.

Arwen's just trying to live her life. You clearly don't want to be a part of it, and she hasn't tried to change your mind, so there's no conflict here. Just go about your business, and stop with the he-said/she-said.
[User Picture]
From:madd74
Date:Jun 7th, 2003 23:09 (UTC)

hahaha, not AGAIN... (part 1)

(Link)
(Yet another post that exceeds the limit... nice to know I have not lost my sense of writing after all...)

"Actually, the real reason your diatribe was deleted was because it was long and verbose. Also because she's never said anything PERSONAL about The Father"

She does not have to. Quite a few people who would read that post know exactly who one of the fathers could be. As for your reasoning behind deleting it, I still see it as a coverup of the other side of the story, since this is not the only time she has only shown one side of the story without the other.

"She told you as soon as she found out, and she told you that it may not be yours. What's left to know?"

No she did not, and I have proof of this. I am sure you only get one side of the story.

"I feel certain that Arwen never claimed to be unable to get pregnant, nor did she claim that she was using birth control.
Please feel free to back up your claims of Arwen's deceit with facts."

I remember something about 'three doctors in three states' or something similar saying it was not possible for her to get pregnent. That fact I would agree to sex without a condom... my fault, and I will not dispute that. To me that was birth control, and as to whether that claim is honest or not goes into all the accounts she has lied, and these lies were proved to me.

"She wasn't. She had comfort sex with a friend. "

Ah huh, and I was in love with someone I would never have a relationship with.

"What difference does that make to you in this case? YOU clearly weren't using a condom either...if you were, then THIS would not be an issue to you."

First off... SHE LIED. Second off, she lied. Third off, after ten minutes or longer after I asked if she had used any unprotected sex (as in without a condom) she said no. She was making it look as if I was the most probable choice as a father. I know I was not using a condom, however, I already *knew* that. I did not know who else might have been, and seeing she is pregnent and it could possibly be my own, then I think I deserve the truth as to who she has been having sex with without a condom and how much.

"Were you raped? Drugged? Did she put together a "Madd and Arwen Should Have Sex" campaign, complete with buttons and ribbons and Powerpoint presentations, and inundate you with propaganda until you gave up and just did it? Did you trip and fall into her? I DON'T THINK SO."

I feel you have read wrong what she wrote to what I was replying to. Her post made it sound as if I was going after her, as if I was 'all about the sex'. I am not a being of all about the sex, the mind turns me on more than the body.
[User Picture]
From:madd74
Date:Jun 7th, 2003 23:10 (UTC)

hahaha, not AGAIN... (part 2)

(Link)
"Here we go...Madd, maybe you should become a doctor before you start diagnosing, mmmkay"

She has made it moer than clear... she also did not tell me how she REALLY felt when she first found out she was prego. According to her, and this is paraphrase since I do not feel a reason to find the exact words, but she felt it was 'unfair' to tell me what was going through her mind, yet, when she was with a friend it was let known she was MORE than happy to find out. Yeah... ah huh, I'll think about becoming a doctor...


"LAME-ASS EXCUSE. Your mother does not equal all women. Your mother does not equal Arwen. The circumstances surrounding this baby's life is not a conspiracy."

Um... FYI, you forgot a [/b] somewhere, but oh well. You are right, Arwen is nothing like my mother. If she was, I still would have wanted to be involved since a few days after I found out. I have a thing against those who lie, and those who do it more, I have more against. While I can befriend people who lie, dating them is another ballgame.

"You were informed of the situation, and you made a choice to not involve yourself with Arwen, on any level. I think her "treatment" of you is in direct response to your very clear decision to remain distant. She didn't intend to become pregnant, and I'm sure that you (and the other candidate for Father of the Year) didn't intend to make her that way...she does want to be a mother, but neither of you are ready to be a father. So she asks for nothing from either of you, because she understands that if she has a right to choose, so do the both of you. Most accidental fathers should be so lucky."

I was informed of the situation, with many facts distored and untrue, and as I would ask of anyone who lives with a human who thinks this way, forgive me, since once a person lies it makes it very difficult to trust them or want to spend the rest of my life with them. I made my choice on involvement based on every way I was treated. You do not see both sides of the story and it is clearly shown that you simply side with Arwen due to your relationship with her, thus making it pointless to continue on the fact of both sides of the story. I am ready to be a father very much so, and the mother is one I would want to raise our child, someone who instills into her a lot of the beliefs or ideas that I have. Everything I believe? No, not at all, but some key fundementals. I find it rather humorous you all of a sudden know everything about me and what I do and do not want. Maybe it is not I who should become the doctor. She asked for plenty of me at first, and rightfully so. At first, I was *willing* to do as such also. Then I learned some shocking truths.

"Just stop thinking about it, Madd. You MAY have contributed to the life of this child, but you are not it's father. I am, if anyone is. I go to the OB appointments. I give the back massages. I rub the ever-growing belly and the baby kicks when it hears my voice. I have the crucial phone numbers, I'll be the one taking time off work. The role of Daddy has been filled, even if by a married woman with kids of her own."

Ah, a direct command, how quaint. Yeah, I don't do demands. As for not being the father, I very much agree with you, even if the child is born with a nice redish hair, has possibly Marfan's syndrome, and strikes an odd resemblence to my liking.

"Arwen's just trying to live her life. You clearly don't want to be a part of it, and she hasn't tried to change your mind, so there's no conflict here. Just go about your business, and stop with the he-said/she-said."

Arwen, as many humans in her case, is living out self-preservation. I no longer want to be a part of it, and you are correct, she has not changed her mind. I will continue to do what I wish, however, and if someone wants to make indirect posts about me, then yeah, I will speak my mind, whether it be on computer or in person.

Thanks for the input... always welcome to know what stories have been told where.
[User Picture]
From:msmamalove
Date:Jun 8th, 2003 09:11 (UTC)

Re: hahaha, not AGAIN... (part 2)

(Link)
Please, do share with the class. I would be very interested in seeing your backup data. You have accused her of lies, but put forth no evidence, other than what would be termed 'hearsay'. You have accused her of purposely becoming pregnant, using your mother's actions as a basis for this (dare I say it) theory.

Madd, I would say that you certainly have reason to be reflective, to wonder if you helped create this child, to think on what might have been if you and Arwen were compatible as a couple (or more likely, if you and Arwen had never been intimate). But to try and justify your inactions by being accusatory is just simple-minded. You are correct when you state, imply, muse, and otherwise deduce that you are Arwen could never and would never be suited to each other. If you are the type of person who feels that people should be emotionally vested in each other before becoming intimate (and I get the impression that if you are not that sort of person, you would very much like to be), then yes, it was a huge mistake for the two of you to allow your relationship to become physical. But it was a choice between the both of you.

Arwen had expressed concerns to me as well that she could not become pregnant. We discussed it at great length. We were shocked to discover that she was carrying, however, the concerns that she had were not unfounded and they were most certainly not fabricated for your benefit. Ready for parenthood or not, you were both incredibly STUPID to not use condoms, as pregnancy is not the only concern when having unprotected sex. You say you didn't want to have sex with her, and then you blame her for the mutual choice to not use a condom, based p
[User Picture]
From:msmamalove
Date:Jun 8th, 2003 09:14 (UTC)

Re: hahaha, not AGAIN... (part 2)

(Link)
(Brief intermission so that I can thumb my nose at LJ's stupid character limit....nyah...now then...from the top of the chopped paragraph)

Arwen had expressed concerns to me as well that she could not become pregnant. We discussed it at great length. We were shocked to discover that she was carrying, however, the concerns that she had were not unfounded and they were most certainly not fabricated for your benefit. Ready for parenthood or not, you were both incredibly STUPID to not use condoms, as pregnancy is not the only concern when having unprotected sex. You say you didn't want to have sex with her, and then you blame her for the mutual choice to not use a condom, based purely on the assumption that she could not become pregnant. Clearly the possibility for disease was not a concern. Stupid, stupid, stupid, on both your parts...but she's not going around saying that you forced her to have unprotected sex with her, as you are. I daresay that you should perhaps review your role in this again (if in fact you have one) and learn to accept responsibility for choices you have made. Particularly the ones you wish you hadn't.

As far as the "shocking truths" that have been uncovered, again, I ask you to share with the rest of us. I may have only gotten "one side of the story" but I'm pretty good at detecting bullshit. And you, sir, are a prize bull.
From:eyes_of_cyrene
Date:Jun 8th, 2003 12:37 (UTC)

Re: hahaha, not AGAIN... (part 2)

(Link)
First off, I'll preface this by saying that I post this in full knowledge that I will, more than likely, lose some friends here, piss some people off, maybe even do more harm than good. It's not my intention. It's not my intention to upset anyone. It's not my intention to smear anyone. I just refuse to watch my friend's integrity and honesty attacked, over and over, when I was THERE and I was witness to at least some of the events. It's not "hearsay". And while I fully understand (obviously) standing up for your friend... still and all, the accusations based on only one side of the story are not making any headway.


I say that this isn't "hearsay"... Neither is it Madd's opinion that he was lied to. The proof is on MY computer, in the chat that took place that night. I'm not about to post THAT... however, the reality is that it happened, I was an actual participant, and I retain the proof. Yes, she eventually admitted the truth to him. However, that was after some pressure from ME... and by then the damage had been done. At the time, all I wished for was that everyone know all the facts. That everyone be on the same page, so things could be worked out among whatever potential biological parents were involved. I wanted to be there for both of them, Arwen and Madd, and hoped for a while that would be possible. In the interests of doing so, I wanted everything out on the table. I didn't want to be privy to information that wasn't shared, didn't want to be in the middle without having free flow of thoughts/ feelings/ facts between them, didn't want anybody to be lied to or given misleading information. So whatever I did to facilitate their conversation that night (and I don't know that there was much interaction after that) was admittedly at least partly in my own interests.

First you said that you were certain that Arwen had not indicated to Madd that she couldn't get pregnant, then you went back and said yes, she did discuss that. So, retraction?

this is something that you layed down and did on your own accord was not a statement that she got pregnant on her own, and it seems that is how you read it. In fact, it seems that a lot of your comments were due to not understanding what Madd was saying... he didn't, for example, ever state that she skipped birth control, he was talking about HIS mother. And to Madd, the fact that Arwen adamantly insisted that she could NOT get pregnant was a form of birth control. He is also nowhere in any of this blaming HER for the mutual decision to not use a condom. ( I fully agree with your contention that it was stupid to not use one, and I've already had this conversation with both of them.)

Moreover, Madd never stated he did NOT want to have sex with her, or that she forced him to have sex without a condom. He simply stated that he was reluctant... while I wasn't there for THAT event, I still understand what he was saying.

*sigh* I completely understand why you would react the way you did... and I completely admire that you've stood by Arwen throughout her pregnancy. I've been in her shoes, and in yours. I know that neither spot is easy, fun, or desirable. Your natural inclination is to protect her. My natural inclination was to stay out of it, because really... what good was it going to do? Lose me some friends, make me some enemies, whatever... However, my inclination to stand up for MY best friend won out over my inclination to stay out of it... so here we are.

I stayed out of it this long to keep from posting anything that was, really, an emotional response. I hope this has been a logical, rational one, rather... and while I realize what I said at the beginning up there may full well happen, I also hope it doesn't. *sigh* An empty hope, perhaps, but it's genuine.
[User Picture]
From:arwynestaria
Date:Jun 8th, 2003 19:54 (UTC)
(Link)
I am so tired of this subject. Why doesn't everyone who isn't involved just stay that way? There was a lot less stress when those "silent" parties stayed quiet.

I have made my wishes known, and I fully believe that what's in the past should stay in the past and people should get over it. I've made mistakes. Everyone has. I apologize for hurting anyone, but I'm done with all of it. I don't want Madd to be in my life. I truly believe that he has some serious issues and he makes me uncomfortable. Gretchen has shown her loyalties lie with him, and that's fine. I don't care one way or the other.

So please... Do me a favor and forget I exist.
[User Picture]
From:madd74
Date:Aug 31st, 2003 14:29 (UTC)

Since I now just read this

(Link)
I want to comment on the people who are not invlolved and just state that would mean that your friend Chris would have had to have stayed out as much as Gretchen.

I won't forget that you just exist. You have impacted my life too much to be able to. I will even let I truly believe that he has some serious issues go, as much as I could comment on that. Arwen... for a second, I would like you to think back to that night at Perkins, when we chatted, after taking our sick friend home. I want you to think back to the interest that I showed in you, as you also had shown to me.

With that in mind, I want you to realize that I am sorry for how things got out of hand. I definitly do have issues when people lie to me. I do my best to not let it get to me, and it just does. As much as I attmept to let things go, even the smallest things blow me over and boil my blood. (I also want you to realize that at this point and time I am sure you and I are the only ones who are going to be seeing any of this).

You made it sound, on many instances, that I wanted nothing to do with you. I am not sure why you would think that. I do not feel I ever stated that I wanted you totally out of my life as a friend. I would have liked to been there for you, however, you pushed me out with so much force that I decided I was not going to attempt to get back.

You can hate me for the rest of eternity if that is your choice, and I am not asking for your forgiveness since I do feel that you care not of my feelings of my existance. You have made that point on many occassions.

However, I do want you to realize that I am sorry the way things did turn out between us. As uncomfortable as I make you, please note that I do still have your book (I think I mentioned it to you before but I think you had been ignoring me), and if you do not want it let me know so I can give it away to someone who reads (since I dont read books for the most part). I also have your saved game and want to know if you would like that as well.

Or you can continue to ignore me... that is definitly something I cannot stop you from doing. However, I would just like to hear word from you regarding my questions about your book and saved game, thanks.
[User Picture]
From:arwynestaria
Date:Aug 31st, 2003 16:47 (UTC)
(Link)
I don't hate you. I'm uncomfortable around you, yes. I haven't been pushed to the hating point. I'm not ready to be friends with you again, maybe not ever. But as circumstances go, they haven't been ideal.

As for the book and the game, don't worry about it. I don't need either one. If you want to give me the book, that's fine, but I don't care either way.
[User Picture]
From:madd74
Date:Aug 31st, 2003 17:03 (UTC)
(Link)
how do you want to get your book then?
[User Picture]
From:arwynestaria
Date:Sep 1st, 2003 01:00 (UTC)
(Link)
Give it to Gretchen. She can get it to me.

Thanks.
[User Picture]
From:msmamalove
Date:Jun 9th, 2003 18:28 (UTC)

Re: hahaha, not AGAIN... (part 2)

(Link)
Gretchen, check your email when you get a minute. I'm moving out of the public forum before this turns into a schoolyard.
From:eyes_of_cyrene
Date:Jun 9th, 2003 20:25 (UTC)

Re: hahaha, not AGAIN... (part 2)

(Link)
Got it. Will respond as soon as I have more than three minutes and don't need to use it to pee...

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