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So Why Don't the Humans Understand? (cont) - JOHD

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May 4th, 2003


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16:32 - So Why Don't the Humans Understand? (cont)
The reasoning behind this post makes more sense if done so reading the first part.




gretl88 (1:38:45p): My definition?
gretl88 (1:38:46p): Hm
gretl88 (1:39:06p): I will have to think for a couple of minutes.
gretl88 (1:42:04p): A best friend:
gretl88 (1:42:23p): is happy for me when I'm happy
gretl88 (1:42:27p): is sad for me when I'm sad
gretl88 (1:42:35p): listens when I need to vent
gretl88 (1:42:58p): tells me when I'm wrong, or being stupid, without being judgemental.
gretl88 (1:43:22p): Will drop everything if I need the presence of a friend
gretl88 (1:44:57p): does what needs to be done to communicate effectively with me (basic things), and realizes that while communication with me is more difficult in some ways and in some situations, that just means communication has to be adapted... because my best friend doesn't want to leave me feeling left out in any way.
gretl88 (1:45:22p): my best friend forgives me for making mistakes, and knows that the mistakes I make are not deliberately made
gretl88 (1:45:58p): my best friend is willing to tell me when something I've done has created an issue... and is willing to listen to my viewpoint on things.
gretl88 (1:46:32p): my best friend makes every attempt to understand where I am coming from and why I do the things I do, the way I do them.
gretl88 (1:47:03p): My best friend appreciates the things I do to show my love and appreciation for my friends and doesn't take those things for granted, rather does things to show them back.
gretl88 (1:49:10p): my best friend understands, without being told, that being my best friend means automatic elevation in status... but doesn't mean that other people aren't important. And understands that sometimes other people's requirements take precedence... but that does not mean that my regard for my best friend is less.
gretl88 (1:50:35p): My best friend is willing to tell me things that I might not want to hear... gently, with love and affection. And willing to take the same from me, in the manner it's intended.
gretl88 (1:50:40p): I believe that's a pretty good start, looking at the best friends I've had in the past and present, what made them my best friends.
maddmartin74 (1:51:01p): definetly more than I got from Myles when asked the same question
maddmartin74 (1:51:07p): also expected
gretl88 (1:51:22p): You expected to get more from me than from Myles? :)
maddmartin74 (1:51:46p): yeah
gretl88 (1:51:49p): For some reason that makes me laugh.
gretl88 (1:51:51p): AH
gretl88 (1:51:58p): VERY important...
gretl88 (1:53:06p): Laughter. I can and do laugh with my best friend, about many, many things. Even myself, or us, or our friendship. Laughter. A critical component. And I think that because it's such a running theme I didn't think to point out... honesty, of course.
maddmartin74 (2:02:04p): so what currently makes me your best friend?
gretl88 (2:02:22p): I was just waiting for THAT question. :)
gretl88 (2:02:26p): *sigh*
gretl88 (2:02:38p): I have been asking myself the same thing of late.
gretl88 (2:03:32p): Sometimes I wonder, in the midst of all the Maddian changes that have taken place, how much is going to stick. Does that make any sense?
maddmartin74 (2:03:52p): ah huh
maddmartin74 (2:04:03p): a lot makes more sense to me with the conversation I have been having with melissa
maddmartin74 (2:04:10p): in fact, it is all coming to play
gretl88 (2:04:24p): What is?
maddmartin74 (2:04:32p): i underestimated what people already know about me
gretl88 (2:04:39p): Such as?
maddmartin74 (2:04:41p): er
maddmartin74 (2:04:42p): I mean
maddmartin74 (2:04:44p): overestimated
gretl88 (2:04:56p): Ah
gretl88 (2:05:23p): Well, not that I'm mystified or anything, but I'm mystified. :)
maddmartin74 (2:05:56p): coming around the period of Jan 6th, I started a detailed warning that certain things about me were going to change
maddmartin74 (2:06:18p): this was due to past experiences, and also my realization, I was goin on year ten of school that should have already been over with
maddmartin74 (2:06:40p): while the warning did alert and prepare many for the change, mainly you and melissa
maddmartin74 (2:07:05p): interactions and feelings dictated a definate non-understanding of what that warning was truly for
gretl88 (2:07:47p): And what was the warning truly for?
maddmartin74 (2:08:01p): i gave the warning
maddmartin74 (2:08:07p): i already explained it
gretl88 (2:08:25p): However you are saying that it wasn't understood...
maddmartin74 (2:08:34p): no
maddmartin74 (2:08:48p): meaning I am not sure if at this time I can convey with you or anyone else its true meaning
maddmartin74 (2:08:56p): i was talking to Myles last night, driving away from X2
gretl88 (2:09:24p): and?
maddmartin74 (2:09:33p): im getting on with it
maddmartin74 (2:09:40p): please do not rush me, it will all come out
gretl88 (2:09:41p): ok
maddmartin74 (2:09:58p): I asked Myles, "Myles, why am I your best friend?"
maddmartin74 (2:10:11p): after a bit of thought, he resonds "Pink Floyd"
maddmartin74 (2:10:38p): so then he gives it a bit more thought and says, "because I understand you"
maddmartin74 (2:10:48p): this was as we were at the A&E cows
maddmartin74 (2:11:36p): i made a comment to him
maddmartin74 (2:12:03p): it was something the lines of my ever ongoing search for someone who can understand me, and that if he did truly understand me, then he had done something no other human can do
maddmartin74 (2:13:27p): so then once again my mind went into over drive
maddmartin74 (2:13:32p): um... you can say things...
maddmartin74 (2:13:41p): i just did not want you to rush me 8-}
gretl88 (2:13:47p): Ok, I just don't want to interrupt your thought process
maddmartin74 (2:14:00p): no, talking does not interrupt
maddmartin74 (2:14:11p): gretl88 (2:09:25p): and?
maddmartin74 (2:14:49p): that has a more direct line of such...
gretl88 (2:15:02p): Ok, gotcha.
gretl88 (2:15:21p): How was it that Myles understood you, was that talked about?
maddmartin74 (2:15:39p): the way I saw it, as much as I know about Myles...
maddmartin74 (2:15:48p): ... Myles sees the fact *I* listen and understand him
maddmartin74 (2:16:02p): not oddly enough, males are much easier to understand than females
maddmartin74 (2:16:06p): as a general rule, of course
maddmartin74 (2:16:43p): I *know* when something bothers Myles as much as I know "oh, that is a Floyd song" if one were to play on the radio
maddmartin74 (2:16:56p): he has his {sigh} he does... and a certain tone that is beyond predictable for madd
gretl88 (2:17:10p): Yes, I understand those kinds of cues.
gretl88 (2:17:48p): I have been thinking of late about understanding of other people.
maddmartin74 (2:17:56p): well, I some times can do simplar to Myles
maddmartin74 (2:18:17p): but like the time you were over for a small bit and left, something had gone on that I just really totally wanted my best friend there, and when I called him, well...
maddmartin74 (2:18:34p): ... he was not able to break the chain to visit me, even if I was going to eat and he was not
gretl88 (2:19:17p): So he wasn't able to be there, and I had already left.
maddmartin74 (2:20:10p): actually, it was a direct relationsh to you that I was requiring something, and you were already having plans with your friend, the reason I wanted you to come to GodFathers with me
gretl88 (2:20:55p): I still don't understand what happened that night.
maddmartin74 (2:21:23p): my questioning you as my best friend came to a new level last night
gretl88 (2:21:31p): I had plans and could not reach Robin to inform her of any change... you asked me to go to eat and I wasn't able to because of that.
gretl88 (2:21:34p): last night?
maddmartin74 (2:21:48p): oh, you mean that night as in back then
maddmartin74 (2:21:51p): i would have to check
maddmartin74 (2:21:57p): in this case
maddmartin74 (2:22:06p): gretl88 (2:19:19p): So he wasn't able to be there, and I had already left.
maddmartin74 (2:22:10p): is what I am responding to
maddmartin74 (2:22:49p): with that
maddmartin74 (2:22:57p): it was going on regards to my thoughts about Myles
gretl88 (2:23:36p): Ok, just so I am sure, we are talking about the night that I was over... you asked if I wanted to go out for dinner and I had, when I arrived, told you my time was limited because of plans with Robin... so I could not go with you... and for some reason (this is what I am not understanding) this really upset you and you wanted Myles to be there, but he was not able to do that. Am I on track so far?
maddmartin74 (2:24:15p): no
maddmartin74 (2:24:19p): something ELSE was bothering me
maddmartin74 (2:24:31p): the fact I could not talk to you about it was why Myles came into play
maddmartin74 (2:24:39p): and this was brought up because Myles says he understands me
maddmartin74 (2:24:41p): {sigh}
gretl88 (2:24:43p): I get it now.
gretl88 (2:25:55p): And Myles did not come over, so you felt... what?
maddmartin74 (2:26:42p): my best friend was not living up to his word
maddmartin74 (2:26:45p): er
maddmartin74 (2:26:48p): correction
maddmartin74 (2:27:04p): my best friend was not living up to the definition of best friend
gretl88 (2:27:18p): Ok.
maddmartin74 (2:28:07p): (jumping hard core subject wise)
maddmartin74 (2:28:26p): I think to my psychology course that talks about egodefense mechs, and specifically, one called rationalization
maddmartin74 (2:28:33p): that is where you really want a job
maddmartin74 (2:28:35p): really bad
maddmartin74 (2:28:40p): and work and prep for it
maddmartin74 (2:28:43p): all these cool things
maddmartin74 (2:29:17p): then
maddmartin74 (2:29:27p): the person goes in for the job and is rejected
maddmartin74 (2:29:34p): "well... the hours were messed up any way"
gretl88 (2:29:54p): So, this statement: Madd: my questioning you as my best friend came to a new level last night - is this in regards to Myles or me?
maddmartin74 (2:30:10p): both of you
gretl88 (2:30:13p): Ok
gretl88 (2:30:24p): What's the reason for the jumping of subjects?
maddmartin74 (2:30:43p): i think what i have seen most is that your love for me has switched from an unconditional to a more conditioned
maddmartin74 (2:31:18p): the subject change opints to something else
maddmartin74 (2:31:29p): as I have less than 30 minutes, I am attempting to give out as much info as possible
gretl88 (2:31:41p): "more conditioned"
gretl88 (2:31:48p): ok
maddmartin74 (2:32:05p): ah huh
maddmartin74 (2:32:11p): not a total conditioned
maddmartin74 (2:32:19p): so the job
maddmartin74 (2:32:20p): well
gretl88 (2:32:23p): ok, that was my next question.
maddmartin74 (2:32:32p): all of a sudden this most perfect job has all these flaws and what have you
gretl88 (2:32:42p): yes
gretl88 (2:34:02p): I am with you thus far. And seeing how this could be applied to people...
maddmartin74 (2:34:11p): exactly
maddmartin74 (2:34:18p): Jack sees all these cool things about Jill
maddmartin74 (2:34:32p): she has these similar likes
maddmartin74 (2:34:35p): and all this other stuff
gretl88 (2:35:08p): and then Jill rejects Jack, and all of a sudden he sees all the flaws. The faults.
maddmartin74 (2:35:16p): exactly
maddmartin74 (2:35:22p): so you even know where I was going, good
maddmartin74 (2:35:36p): I mentioned something a while back in an email to you about questioning you being a best friend
maddmartin74 (2:35:45p): and I see... {checking}
maddmartin74 (2:37:23p): sorry, let me restate that
maddmartin74 (2:37:30p): maddmartin74 (2:02:04p): so what currently makes me your best friend?
maddmartin74 (2:37:35p): gretl88 (2:02:38p): I have been asking myself the same thing of late.
maddmartin74 (2:37:41p): and then add to that
maddmartin74 (2:37:49p): the fact I have brought up the question before
maddmartin74 (2:38:02p): conditioned love I see that as
maddmartin74 (2:38:20p): since I question it, then it is also questioned
gretl88 (2:38:24p): Actually
gretl88 (2:38:32p): I did not question it when you did.
maddmartin74 (2:38:46p): not the moment no... that was then, this is now
gretl88 (2:38:47p): I have questioned that independently.
maddmartin74 (2:40:27p): wondering how much is going to stick
maddmartin74 (2:40:41p): that was your only response to my question, and a valid one at that
maddmartin74 (2:40:45p): what is going to stick?
maddmartin74 (2:40:59p): if you knew me, you actually would already know the answer to this question
maddmartin74 (2:41:21p): this is the error of the teacher
maddmartin74 (2:42:09p): no matter how good a student (Gretchen) someone is, if the teacher (Madd) is absoluely horrid, then if the sudent is new to the material (maddian concepts) then they are likely to fail in its understanding
maddmartin74 (2:42:24p): however
maddmartin74 (2:42:58p): if the student brings in its own beliefs and does not take the ground work of what already is and what is being applied to change, then that is not due to the teacher
maddmartin74 (2:43:22p): let me ask you these things, since I just got done having this type of talk with Melissa
gretl88 (2:43:26p): I have to admit I'm going to have to read that a few times to make sure I understand it.
gretl88 (2:43:26p): ok
maddmartin74 (2:43:41p): she stated something similar, a defense almost, that how is she to know what is going to stay and what is leaving
maddmartin74 (2:43:49p): then it will make sense
gretl88 (2:43:49p): ok
maddmartin74 (2:43:53p): possible more sense
maddmartin74 (2:44:01p): she was talking about rambling
maddmartin74 (2:44:13p): and stated that she felt the way she did due to my changes that i warn everyone about
maddmartin74 (2:44:33p): riddle me this... would you ever expect me to lie to anyone?
maddmartin74 (2:44:35p): ever?
gretl88 (2:44:34p): no
maddmartin74 (2:44:45p): but wait
maddmartin74 (2:45:03p): as I told her... you both have this notion that things are changing in me, and that brings to question things you know about me
maddmartin74 (2:45:19p): so this tells me something
maddmartin74 (2:45:29p): you both have learned that some things do NOT change
maddmartin74 (2:45:35p): now
maddmartin74 (2:45:45p): with my experiences and understanding of you both
maddmartin74 (2:46:01p): I realize that my honesty is not the only thing set in stone without change
maddmartin74 (2:47:07p): so when I hear the fact that me being a best friend is in question due to "gretl88 (2:03:33p): Sometimes I wonder, in the midst of all the Maddian changes that have taken place, how much is going to stick. Does that make any sense?"
maddmartin74 (2:47:15p): then I wonder one of two things
maddmartin74 (2:47:30p): 1)what part of your definitions to me could possibly change in me
maddmartin74 (2:47:46p): 2)what parts of your defintion that define such were not listened
maddmartin74 (2:48:09p): C)what am I missing?
gretl88 (2:49:29p): Hm. I think that when I said that (and there was actually more to it, I believe the conversation kind of went on without me finishing my tangent) I meant... how much of the change that I have seen in our interaction, in our friendship, in you, is due to schedule change... soemthing that came into play hardcore last fall. Something that you drummed into my head was a HUGE reason for many of the changes that affected you and me and us.
maddmartin74 (2:50:09p): another thing I worry about
maddmartin74 (2:50:14p): i see it as this
gretl88 (2:50:50p): Also I bring into consciousness some of the concepts you have brought up with school... how you have changed your belief on something from one week to the next, and in my wanting to understand and communicate wtih you, these potholes are there that I can fall into and not be able to climb out.
maddmartin74 (2:51:48p): if someone you claim is your best friend warns you ahead of time that some changes are going to happen, I would see by the definition of best friend the person be... more patient with him/her
gretl88 (2:51:49p): I wish to always believe as my friend, best or otherwise, you will give me your hand to help me out of those communication holes.
gretl88 (2:51:56p): Um.
maddmartin74 (2:52:01p): While I did see some patients with my changes with the both of you...
maddmartin74 (2:52:14p): ... to the level by definition of either girlfriend or best friend I did not see
maddmartin74 (2:52:15p): just as
maddmartin74 (2:52:29p): what Myles did with me was not even close to the definition of a best friend
maddmartin74 (2:52:48p): granted
maddmartin74 (2:52:54p): it is not the best comparison
gretl88 (2:52:52p): You know, you have actually never defined what YOUR definition of a best friend is.
maddmartin74 (2:53:10p): you are correct, expect one soon 8-}
gretl88 (2:53:13p): Excellent.
maddmartin74 (2:53:26p): i was working on some other definitions last night before my computer went beyond psycho on me
gretl88 (2:55:19p): I guess, and I don't know if this is going to be seen as being defensive or not... maybe it IS defensive, I don't know... I guess I feel I have been a lot more patient with you than you think I have. I KNOW I have been a lot more patient with your changes than I have ever been with any other person in my life, so perhaps it is a matter of degree. Perhaps I wasn't as patient as you expected... but I was more patient than *I* expected to be.
gretl88 (2:56:06p): And that, I think, is where all the "conditional" versus "more conditioned" stems from...
gretl88 (2:56:11p): er
maddmartin74 (2:56:19p): to that I applaud you... with your given history how you handled some things due to jealousy and the like, that is commendable
gretl88 (2:56:20p): UNCONDITIONAL versus more conditioned
maddmartin74 (2:56:46p): Oh I realized there would be some extra patience with me
maddmartin74 (2:57:01p): by definition of a best friend, true, I saw room for a lot more
gretl88 (2:56:58p): However, it would seem it wasn't enough. *sigh*
maddmartin74 (2:57:14p): if you were just a shmuck on the street
maddmartin74 (2:57:17p): or just another friend
gretl88 (2:58:00p): by my definition of a best friend, you would understand that because of other issues in my life (and believe me, they have been MANY in the past months) my ability to pour myself into you... was limited.
maddmartin74 (2:58:54p): i have taken many things into consideration
gretl88 (2:58:53p): I really, really feel that I have done the best job I could, with what I have been given, in being your friend. I know I have made mistakes, and I have worked to correct those mistakes and apologized for them. *sigh*
maddmartin74 (2:59:04p): this is the reason I was not going to send you that email that somehow made it to you
gretl88 (2:59:08p): ah
maddmartin74 (2:59:24p): since what I was starting to emotionally get into was something different than how I really wnt to convey myself
maddmartin74 (2:59:35p): it was a computer error I had last night when attempting to talk to Melissa...
maddmartin74 (2:59:39p): it was a very strange problem
maddmartin74 (3:00:14p): on that note, I am going to post Melissa's chat I had with her to JOHD and get on with my schedule]
maddmartin74 (3:00:18p): i heard a beep, later
gretl88 (3:00:21p): ok
gretl88 (3:00:38p): I love you, Maddness. later.
maddmartin74 (3:01:11p): actually, before I go, may I post this chat after hers?
gretl88 (3:01:16p): yes
maddmartin74 (3:01:18p): ok
maddmartin74 (3:01:20p): later

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